Instead of a list of Totally Awesome Guns!, I provided a rather prosaic list of characteristics every gun buyer should evaluate prior to purchase and carry.
Let's assume you've done an objective analysis of your body type, flexibility, daily habits, workplace, exposure, practice, budget, legal knowledge, decision-making, and commitment and have determined you should purchase a handgun for concealed carry.
Great! You're the type person who should be carrying concealed and you make everyone around you safer.
NOTE: No one is paying me for this blog. I don't sell ammunition, firearms, or related gear. I have carried various pistols for self defense. If you are happy with your .22 pistol, great. If you carry a 9 mm, great. If the .45 is the only acceptable handgun, fine. My assumption is that the mission and the capabilities will vary, and the handgun should be selected that meets all the various criteria while still providing an effective deterrent (in most cases) or ender-of-badness (if it comes to that).So now it's time to look at some more characteristics of the best concealed carry handgun for you. These include:
- Caliber
- Capacity
- Size & weight / Carry-ability
ASIDE
If there were no constraints I would heartily recommend an M1A2 Abrams Main Battle Tank. The stabilized main gun and improved ballistic computer, thermal sights, 7.62 coaxial machine gun, .50 caliber commander's machine gun, loader's MG, treads and armor make it the ultimate defensive weapon. But gas mileage is terrible (1 gallon per mile), parts and maintenance not exactly cheap, and they are not available on the civilian market.
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My Former Ride |
While they are excellent defensive firearms for some situations, shotguns and rifles are not an option, as the intent is to carry concealed.
Therefore we're trying to identify a small, lightweight package that provides defensive capability to civilians in normal civilians operations.
Civilians are not conducting assaults on fortified compounds, seizing objectives, or hunting terrorists.
Therefore we're constrained to handguns -- the least effective firearm that is the most concealable, portable, and rapidly deployed weapon available.
So we've already determined some constraints: portability and concealment.
So selecting the perfect gun for you isn't simple.
But it can be fun.
So selecting the perfect gun for you isn't simple.
But it can be fun.
Click here for some consideration about "Training Guns"
Caliber
NOTE: Even though I don't think it's the most important factor, I would be dismissing widely-held professional and amateur opinion. So I'll set my own thoughts aside and suggest we begin our gun search with a discussion of calibers.Caliber (or calibre) is the approximate internal diameter of a barrel and the projectile it fires. There have been many calibers developed over the past 150 years, but the market for modern defensive handgun calibers has been reduced to a fairly small subset.
While variety and choice is excellent, and we're fortunate to live in a place that permits competition and provides such abundance, too many choices can be confusing. So while I appreciate the wide variety available, I'll stick to the common, readily-available calibers.
The handgun calibers are listed from smallest to largest in the table below:
Caliber
|
Common Description
|
Pistol or Revolver?
|
Availability
|
Comments
|
22 LR
|
“Twenty-two long rifle”
|
Pistol and Revolver
|
Widely available
|
Small round, not acceptable as a defensive round for most
self-defense advocates
|
380 Auto
|
“Three-eighty Auto”
|
Pistol
|
Available
|
Small round, considered the absolute smallest acceptable
round by most defensive carry advocates
|
9mm Luger
|
“Nine millimeter” or “Luger” or “NATO”
|
Pistol
|
Available
|
The most popular handgun round on earth. Accepted as a
suitable defensive round by most advocates
|
38 Special
|
“Thirty-eight special” or “Police special”
|
Revolver
|
Available
|
Once the primary round of police revolvers, until replaced
by 9mm and other rounds with the widespread adoption of auto-pistols
beginning in the 1980s.
|
357 Mag
|
“Three fifty seven magnum”
|
Pistol
|
Available
|
A popular police round highly regarded for high velocity
and penetration
|
40 S&W
|
“Forty”
|
Pistol
|
Available
|
At one time a very popular compromise round adopted by the
FBI.
|
10mm Auto
|
“Ten millimeter”
|
Pistol
|
Some shortages, expensive
|
The smallest of the “big bore” rounds meant to fire a
larger bullet at high velocity.
|
44 Special
|
“Forty-four special”
|
Revolver
|
A larger revolver round with good velocity and mass.
|
|
44 Mag
|
“Forty-four magnum”
|
Revolver
|
Available
|
A larger revolver round made famous by Dirty Harry movies.
It is no longer “The Most powerful handgun in the World,” but it’s still one
to avoid being shot by
|
45 Auto
|
“Forty-five” or “Forty-five ACP”
|
Pistol
|
Available
|
The GI round, adopted by the US Army in 1911, used in
World War Two, Korea, and Vietnam. Probably the most loved pistol round by
enthusiasts.
|
454 Casull
|
“Four fifty four Casull”
|
Pistol
|
Rare, expensive
|
These are very large handgun rounds more suitable for
hunting bear and buffalo than carrying for self defense.
|
460 S&W Magnum
|
“Four sixty Smith and Wesson magnum”
|
Pistol
|
Rare, expensive
|
|
500 S&W Magnum
|
“Five hundred Smith and Wesson magnum”
|
Pistol
|
Rare, expensive
|
I'll limit this discussion to the rounds highlighted in yellow above.
NOTE: If you want a more complete and detailed handgun ammunition comparison chart, this one by Genitron is very good.Keep in mind that the purpose of a defensive round is to stop the attack, not necessarily kill, injure, or maim the attacker (though that might happen!).
Therefore the round most likely to end the attack is most effective.
If you're squeamish maybe you should pass on this article that discusses "Stopping power" in handgun rounds.
"Always" and "Perhaps"
There is no absolute anything in life so stating that "This round will always..." or "That round will never..." is silly.All we can say with certainty is "This round will most likely in certain circumstance produce this effect." Anything else is guessing and belies a misunderstanding of all the various factors that apply to a shooting incident.
Bullets produce five terminal effects when they strike a body (animal or human):
- Penetration: The distance traveled through clothing and tissue (human or animal skin, muscle, fat, and bone)
- Wound Cavity: The hole left in the body after the bullet passes through
- Temporary Cavity: The momentary expansion as the bullet’ passes through.
- Fragmentation: The separation of the bullet into smaller fragments which depart from the wound cavity and travel in different directions than the major mass of the bullet
- Shock: The perception of impact from a high-speed projectile on the struck portion of the body.
There is no way to accurately predict the performance of any bullet in the wide variety of conditions and targets presented in defensive situation. The best we can do is select a projectile that combines the five terminal effects to cause immediate incapacitation.
Bullets also cause effects when they don't strike a target:
Defensive encounter conditions are not static or predictable. A 350 pound attacker bundled up for winter in Minnesota presents a different problem than a 150 pound flip-flop and gym short wearing carjacker in Miami.
So there's no way to be certain any round listed below will stop all attackers in all conditions.
Here's a well-written essay on Handgun Stopping Power.
It's not caliber, velocity, or penetration in ballistic jello.
It's shot placement.
A .22 to the bridge of the nose will be more effective than an arm-graze with a .500 S&W Magnum.
Keep that in mind as we review the most common defensive handgun rounds.
22 LR
The ubiquitous .22 is a fine round for target practice, small game hunting, and learning how to handle a rifle. The round's lost cost, weight, recoil, and noise is why it's usually the first round fired by children and adults new to firearms.
The round is used in a small number of tiny handguns. Very few defensive carry advocates recommend the .22 as a defensive round as it is not very large and does not seem to be sufficiently forceful to stop an attacker. The concern is that a determined assailant will likely shrug off a hit from a .22 and continue the attack.
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Helpful Graphic from the great Walther Forums site |
Bullets also cause effects when they don't strike a target:
- Shattering: the surface struck shatters and disperses fragments
- Ricochet: the bullet changes direction when it strikes an object sufficiently dense to resist the bullet.
- Over Penetration: the bullet flies through sheetrock, drapes, windows, or some other fragile or light material and continues past the intended target.
These are not desired and so bullets that have so much mass or density that they tend to overpenetrate or ricochet, or are so brittle they shatter into fragments are not necessarily the best choice for self-defense.
Thus an entire industry has evolved around the development and production of defensive bullets (a "bullet" is the portion of the round that actually flies towards the target).
So there's no way to be certain any round listed below will stop all attackers in all conditions.
Here's a well-written essay on Handgun Stopping Power.
So The Best Bullet is...?
There is one strongly correlated indicator of success (notice the lawyer-like careful selection of words? It's intentional), and only one.It's not caliber, velocity, or penetration in ballistic jello.
It's shot placement.
A .22 to the bridge of the nose will be more effective than an arm-graze with a .500 S&W Magnum.
Keep that in mind as we review the most common defensive handgun rounds.
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Some Common Handgun Calibers |
The ubiquitous .22 is a fine round for target practice, small game hunting, and learning how to handle a rifle. The round's lost cost, weight, recoil, and noise is why it's usually the first round fired by children and adults new to firearms.
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Beretta Neos |
Nevertheless there are some people who cannot carry a larger pistol or revolver for a number of reasons, and it is probably best to assume a defender armed with a Beretta Bobcat in .22 Long Rifle will be more successful than an unarmed defender.
I'm not an advocate for the .22 LR as an effective defensive round BUT I think it can be effective in certain conditions and situations. If you've done the analysis and think only a pocket .22 will work for you, that's fine -- just understand that you have a gap in coverage. Multiple, drug-crazed, and/or large/powerful attackers might ignore a .22 unless the shot is well-placed.
Recommended .22 handguns include:
38 Special
The .40 is a fine compromise round, and I carried one for years.
45
The .45 Automatic Colt Pistol (ACP) or .45 Auto was designed by John Browning in 1904 for use in the Colt semi-automatic pistol. The final design (which became the US Army M1911 pistol) became the benchmark by which all handguns were judged. The capacity, accuracy, durability, rate of fire, and terminal performance were all acceptable to the US Army in 1911 until the US Army decided to drop the 1911 and pick up the 9 mm NATO standard.
I'm not an advocate for the .22 LR as an effective defensive round BUT I think it can be effective in certain conditions and situations. If you've done the analysis and think only a pocket .22 will work for you, that's fine -- just understand that you have a gap in coverage. Multiple, drug-crazed, and/or large/powerful attackers might ignore a .22 unless the shot is well-placed.
Recommended .22 handguns include:
- Walther PPK/S .22
- Smith & Wesson M&P .22
- Beretta Neos .22
- Ruger SR22
38 Special
This round was the standard issue for police forces across the country from the 1920s until the early 1990s. It is still the most popular revolver round and used by many as their primary defensive firearm.
Revolvers have some advantages which enthusiasts are quick to mention. Despite having less capacity than most auto-pistols, revolver simplicity, durability, reliability, and tolerance to dirt and abuse make them a solid choice for a defensive firearm. The .38 special is a solid choice for a defensive round that combines reasonable bullet weight and speed with manageable recoil.
Recommended .38 Special handguns include:
9 mm
I'll admit a bias here: All defensive handguns I own are 9 mm. A common caliber simplifies ammunition buying, helps ensure every gun in the house has ammo, everyone in the house knows how to operate the guns, and a single caliber across all guns reduces the chance of putting the wrong ammo in a weapon under stress.
We have a Browning Buckmark .2 LR for target shooting and campsite plinking. Eventually I'll add a super-cool custom 1911 to the collection.
But after owning and shooting a .40 for years it just came down to practicalities: 9 mm is cheaper to shoot and easier to find.
Now that's over, we can discuss the merits and shortcomings of the 9x19 Parabellum (or Luger.) The round has been around for a long time, and took off in the US with the widespread adoption of auto-pistols by police forces and government agencies. When the US Army dropped the long-tenured 1911 and picked up the Beretta M9 in 1985, the 9 mm became an acceptable addition to the civilian and law enforcement arsenal.
The 9 mm was the standard NATO round, and the Army adopted the same round to maintain cordial relations and logistical simplicity with our European allies. It also helped that the M9 carried more rounds in the magazine (M9 had 15 vs. 1911 7 rounds), had tamer recoil (the mass of the M9 is about equal to the 1911 but shoots a lighter projectile), was easier to field strip and clean, and had a single external safety.
But the 9 mm round was criticized for lack of "stopping power." Again, this characteristic is somewhat nebulous, since "stopping power" in a military operation is different than a civilian defensive situation.
The Army's job is "close with and destroy the enemy," while the civilian concealed carrier's job is to end the attack. Assuming that half of all handgun presentations result in the assailant fleeing, it would seem "stopping power" doesn't require a heavy projectile.
In addition, the 9 mm has proven effective at stopping many people in many situations. Very few humans can shrug off a 9 mm hit without some degradation of capacity to continue to harm.
And of course shot placement matters with a 9 mm. One or two well-placed shots from a 9 mm will stop any attacker, no matter how drug-fueled or insane.
There are hundreds of 9 mm handgun makes and models, so any list will be incomplete. Here are a few (very few) recommended 9 mm handguns that I've either owned, fired, or handled:
40
The .40 Smith & Wesson (S&W) was developed for law enforcement to replace the FBI's 10 mm Auto, which was considered a hot round with a significant recoil, limiting the agents who could successfully fire the gun accurately. The design requirements of the .40 were also the ability to fit into a medium-frame semi-automatic handgun.
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Smith & Wesson 637 Airweight |
Recommended .38 Special handguns include:
- Ruger (several models)
- Smith & Wesson (several models)
- Taurus (several models)
9 mm
I'll admit a bias here: All defensive handguns I own are 9 mm. A common caliber simplifies ammunition buying, helps ensure every gun in the house has ammo, everyone in the house knows how to operate the guns, and a single caliber across all guns reduces the chance of putting the wrong ammo in a weapon under stress.
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Sig Sauer P229 9mm (non-rail) |
But after owning and shooting a .40 for years it just came down to practicalities: 9 mm is cheaper to shoot and easier to find.
Now that's over, we can discuss the merits and shortcomings of the 9x19 Parabellum (or Luger.) The round has been around for a long time, and took off in the US with the widespread adoption of auto-pistols by police forces and government agencies. When the US Army dropped the long-tenured 1911 and picked up the Beretta M9 in 1985, the 9 mm became an acceptable addition to the civilian and law enforcement arsenal.
The 9 mm was the standard NATO round, and the Army adopted the same round to maintain cordial relations and logistical simplicity with our European allies. It also helped that the M9 carried more rounds in the magazine (M9 had 15 vs. 1911 7 rounds), had tamer recoil (the mass of the M9 is about equal to the 1911 but shoots a lighter projectile), was easier to field strip and clean, and had a single external safety.
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Walther PPS 9mm |
But the 9 mm round was criticized for lack of "stopping power." Again, this characteristic is somewhat nebulous, since "stopping power" in a military operation is different than a civilian defensive situation.
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Smith & Wesson M&Pc |
In addition, the 9 mm has proven effective at stopping many people in many situations. Very few humans can shrug off a 9 mm hit without some degradation of capacity to continue to harm.
And of course shot placement matters with a 9 mm. One or two well-placed shots from a 9 mm will stop any attacker, no matter how drug-fueled or insane.
There are hundreds of 9 mm handgun makes and models, so any list will be incomplete. Here are a few (very few) recommended 9 mm handguns that I've either owned, fired, or handled:
- Sig Sauer P229/ P239 / P224 / P238
- Smith and Wesson M&P 9(full size and compact)
- Smith and Wesson Shield
- Walther PPS
- Walther PPQ
- H&K P30 series / USP
- Ruger LCP
40
The .40 Smith & Wesson (S&W) was developed for law enforcement to replace the FBI's 10 mm Auto, which was considered a hot round with a significant recoil, limiting the agents who could successfully fire the gun accurately. The design requirements of the .40 were also the ability to fit into a medium-frame semi-automatic handgun.
The .40 is a fine compromise round, and I carried one for years.
But the high cost of ammo and the high stress on the firearm meant it was not a good practice round. I shot less because it cost more in the short and long run.
Most manufacturers have a .40 variant of their 9 mm handguns.
Like most compromises, the .40 has the worst as well as the best of both sides. While many people appreciate the ballistics of the .40, many have left it behind and moved (as i have) to the 9 mm or to the .45 ACP round.
Which brings us to the....
Like most compromises, the .40 has the worst as well as the best of both sides. While many people appreciate the ballistics of the .40, many have left it behind and moved (as i have) to the 9 mm or to the .45 ACP round.
Which brings us to the....
45
The .45 Automatic Colt Pistol (ACP) or .45 Auto was designed by John Browning in 1904 for use in the Colt semi-automatic pistol. The final design (which became the US Army M1911 pistol) became the benchmark by which all handguns were judged. The capacity, accuracy, durability, rate of fire, and terminal performance were all acceptable to the US Army in 1911 until the US Army decided to drop the 1911 and pick up the 9 mm NATO standard.
Since then the walls have gone up dividing between to .45 adherents and everyone else.
(It's a shame, but it's typical. We love our tribes: Harley v. every other motorcycle, Apple v. Microsoft, .30-06 v. .270, Infantry v. Armor, Steelers v. Ravens...)
I could never shoot my GI-issue 1911 well. My hands are not large and by the time I gripped the grip safety hard enough, maneuvered my thumb up to the safety and aligned my sights my hand had moved so much it was a different grip every time.
The GI issue was phased out and then the whole world (or so it seemed) started building 1911s. Not just run-o-the-mill 1911s, but really, really nice 1911s.
But this isn't about the gun, per se, but the ammo. And the .45 is a proven defensive round with many, many examples of successful engagements around the world in civilian and military applications.
We can list the bullet weights, velocity, shape -- all the various factors that make up a bullet's terminal performance, but just about anyone will agree that you can't be wrong with a .45.
So why isn't the .45 the universal round? Why even have other rounds?
It all comes down to a few factors:
The weight of a bullet is small -- so light to be almost insignificant in the recoil equation. The majority of the felt recoil is a function of the sudden expansion of gasses that propel the round down the barrel.
If you compare the common handgun round sizes, you'll see the .45 is larger than the 9mm or .40 S&W rounds.
Therefore the perceived recoil is more in a 1911 .45 than a Browning Buckmark .22 LR (both guns weigh about the same).
Of course this an oversimplification, but many people choose not to carry the .45 due to reduced capacity, increased recoil, and more expensive ammunition ("larger" = more brass, lead, powder...). That's perfectly fine and understandable.
So that's a short list of common defensive rounds. The list is not exhaustive and the descriptions not encyclopedic, but if you decide to do more research, have at it! There's plenty of information out there (but not all of it is good, so tread carefully), and many people have invested decades exploring the vast world of ballistics. It's a complex but rewarding subject where equations and predictive analysis meets real world experience.
If this is enough information, great! Let's quickly discuss bullet types before moving on to the next characteristic.
(This is about buying the right gun, right?)
The GI issue was phased out and then the whole world (or so it seemed) started building 1911s. Not just run-o-the-mill 1911s, but really, really nice 1911s.
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Sig Sauer Fastback Carry 1911 (SWEET!) |
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Wilson Combat Carry 1911 (SWEET!) |
We can list the bullet weights, velocity, shape -- all the various factors that make up a bullet's terminal performance, but just about anyone will agree that you can't be wrong with a .45.
So why isn't the .45 the universal round? Why even have other rounds?
It all comes down to a few factors:
- Capacity: A larger round will consume more space (shocker) and thus fewer rounds can be stored inside the magazine which is usually inside the hand grip on most modern auto pistols.
- Bullet Shape: Auto pistols were designed around a specific shape and dimension round. While the curve on the front of the bullet can vary the overall shape needs to remain within some fairly tight tolerances to work reliably in the loading mechanism.
- Recoil: Force = Mass * Acceleration. The heavier the mass, the greater the force at the same speed. A bullet leaving the handgun exerts a small force over a very short period of time. This is termed "recoil" and is the reaction to the bullet firing action.
The weight of a bullet is small -- so light to be almost insignificant in the recoil equation. The majority of the felt recoil is a function of the sudden expansion of gasses that propel the round down the barrel.
If you compare the common handgun round sizes, you'll see the .45 is larger than the 9mm or .40 S&W rounds.
Therefore the perceived recoil is more in a 1911 .45 than a Browning Buckmark .22 LR (both guns weigh about the same).
Of course this an oversimplification, but many people choose not to carry the .45 due to reduced capacity, increased recoil, and more expensive ammunition ("larger" = more brass, lead, powder...). That's perfectly fine and understandable.
So that's a short list of common defensive rounds. The list is not exhaustive and the descriptions not encyclopedic, but if you decide to do more research, have at it! There's plenty of information out there (but not all of it is good, so tread carefully), and many people have invested decades exploring the vast world of ballistics. It's a complex but rewarding subject where equations and predictive analysis meets real world experience.
If this is enough information, great! Let's quickly discuss bullet types before moving on to the next characteristic.
(This is about buying the right gun, right?)
Bullet Types
- Armor Piercing (AP): A bullet made from steel or tungsten alloys in a pointed shape typically covered by a thin layer of lead and or a copper or brass jacket.
- Flat Nose Lead (FNL): Similar to the above, with a flattened nose.
- Full Metal Jacket (FMJ): Lead core surrounded by a full covering of brass, copper, or mild steel.
- Jacketed Hollow Point (JHP): Lead core surrounded by a partial covering of brass, copper, or mild steel with a concave shape at the ballistic end.
- Jacketed Soft Point (JSP): Lad core surrounded by a covering of brass, copper, or mild steel with the ballistic end of lead exposed.
- Round Nose Lead (RNL): An unjacketed lead bullet.
- Wadcutter (WC): Completely cylindrical, with a slight concavity in the nose.
- Semi Wad Cutter (SWC) identical to the WC with a smaller diameter flap pointed conical or radius nose.
NOTE: If calibers and performance metrics are interesting and you want to know more, there are many, many good books and references. Here's a site that provides metrics on various handgun calibers: Ballsitics by the Inch
Choosing
There is no right answer. If you are new to shooting or very recoil sensitive, or your hand hurts after shooting a .38 special, or you just don't want to carry a "heavy' firearm -- a .22 may be your best carry choice.
Make a choice based on the factors that make sense to you and then be aware of the limitations or gaps in coverage and plan accordingly.
If you want to carry a .22 because the gun is light and you walk alot during the day, maybe it's a different gun for home defense since you're not carrying it there. Or maybe you need to exercise and build up your stamina. Either way, choose and then be wise about what capabilities you have available.
You can't go wrong with a .45 if you're a large, reasonably fit male or female that enjoys shooting and has no recoil sensitivity. But that's not everyone, so a 9 mm or even a .38 Spcial might be the best choice.
Every round I've listed has been used effectively to stop another human being from continuing an attack. But every round also has documented cases of attackers ignoring the hits and continuing the attack.
Far more important than round size is shot placement, and you'll only hit what you're capable of hitting repeatedly in practice.
So your choice must include this question: "Can I afford to practice with this/ Will i enjoy practicing with this?
Answer those questions and you will have narrowed down the choices to a couple.
Then pick the one that's cheaper. Trust me -- you'll shoot more.
Capacity
Any gun you select must offer sufficient capacity to effectively end any threat situation. That's easy to write because it isn't very specific. how many is enough?
Most gunfighters will tell you "There's no such thing as being too rich or having too much ammo!"
Cute, until you have to carry all that ammo. It's heavy! (lead, brass, packed powder...)
So again, we face a compromise, and again, the compromise results in some gaps.
For example, my Walther PPS 9 MM stores 7 rounds with the extended magazine. My Sig P229 9 mm has a 15 round capacity. More than double the capacity -- so a full load plus one spare magazine equals 30 rounds -- that's a pretty decent amount of firepower for a civilian in the threat situations I am most likely to face.
But the fully-loaded P229 is heavy. And it's slightly wider than the Walther so it's not as easy to conceal (it can be done, but it requires certain wardrobe choices).
So I often choose less capacity in exchange for better concealment.
You will have to make this same tradeoff. For many people the revolver is the perfect firearm -- simple, low maintenance, small size, fairly lightweight. But the capacity of a standard revolver is 5 to 6 rounds -- hardly "high capacity."
Thus you must consider this factor when selecting a carry gun -- enough rounds to meet the majority of situations you expect to encounter.
Size & Weight /Carry-ability
This is a very important factor in carry gun selection. It might look great in the ads, on the shelf, in the magazines, in the store display. But if its so big and heavy you don't like carrying it it's worthless.
Choose the smallest, lightest gun you can find that fits the round you've chosen. Then find a place where you can rent one or find someone who will let you shoot his. A light gun will not resist recoil and so the recoil will seem "snappier." You need to be sure you can handle the recoil for more than 10 shots, because you'll want to fire at least 50 when you take the time to visit the range and practice.
So yet another compromise: gun size and weight is constrained at the big & heavy end by your capacity to actually carry it, and on the small & light end by your ability to effectively shoot it.
Err towards lighter and smaller. better to carry it and develop a tolerance for the recoil than leave it at home.
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Coming soon: Which Gun? Part Three
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Coming soon: Which Gun? Part Three
- Durability
- Accuracy
- Reliability
- Aesthetics
- Conceal-ability
- Suitability
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Thanks for reading and taking the time to comment! I appreciate your comments and will review and post if appropriate.
thanks again!